Learning by Experimentation and the First-Year Faculty Experience with Neil Deochand

Dr. Neil Deochand is completing his first year as an assistant professor at Mississippi State University. He came with a doctorate in behavior analysis, years of online teaching experience, and a lot of ideas about how people learn. This year, he has been putting all of it into practice at Mississippi State.

In this conversation with host Dr. Shannon Harmon, Neil reflects on what it looks like to experiment with your teaching while navigating the realities of a first year at a new institution. He shares how he brings the experimental mindset of a researcher into the classroom, what hands-on learning looks like in a behavior analysis course, and what he has learned about his students and himself along the way.

The willingness to experiment, reflect, and adjust turns out to be not just good science. It's good teaching.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

There isn't anyone's idea in teaching. Like you're already building off of everyone, you're standing in the shoulders of the giants. Just like the research literature works. So it's like if I take some idea from someone in the apartment, it's not like taking when I'm working with them. And if I can find something, I'm gonna give it back to them in spades. What works for someone can work for everyone, and we're all succeeding together.

Shannon Harmon 0:25

Welcome to Insightful Teaching, the podcast from the Center for Innovation and Teaching Excellence at Mississippi State University. I'm your host, Dr. Shannon Horman, and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you're listening on your drive to campus, between meetings, or maybe while sipping your coffee before class, welcome. Joining me today is Dr. Neil Diachan, an assistant professor in the Department of Counseling, Higher Education Leadership, Educational Psychology, and Foundations here at Mississippi State. Neil is in his first year as a faculty member, and he teaches experimental analysis of behavior. Neil, welcome to Insightful Teaching. To get us started, will you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Yeah, um, my name's Neil. I came to America from England. It's a pretty big difference in terms of the education system. There was a big difference between multiple choice and recall and essay writing, a lot of essay writing where I came from. Went to the University of Florida, did my undergraduate there, and that's where I got some exposure to behavior analysis. But the the trick was I didn't know I was getting exposure to behavior analysis. It's basically an indoctrination procedure at that point. Oh wow. So I'm just I'm just kidding. But like my for example, my psychology professor presented all the schools of thought, and I was like, I like this one. I need to find out she was a behavior analyst. And like maybe I was led down the path, right? Right. But um, one of the things that like struck me that made it interesting um was that behavior analysis itself tries to pull the wall over like covert processes and information about the decision-making process while not ignoring it and maybe making it more systematic and trainable. So I was like allured to behavior analysis through that. And a lot of my undergraduate experience started off with animal research first, yeah. Like volunteering for the grad students, helping them run pigeons in their labs, you know, which is the funniest thing when you were like an undergrad, you don't know what you're doing, and you've got and you're wrangling all the pigeons. It's actually it's actually a lot easier than you imagine because they you you they basically put in pictures. Yeah. And you put them upside down and they don't move. If you put them upside down, they they chill.

Shannon Harmon 2:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

And they actually you don't the ones that are really well trained, they just like you put the cup into the cage and they go in, and then you put them in, and you've got you've got a tray of like 32 pigeons, and you roll them into the experimental chambers. So they they're actually pretty easy going. Awesome. Um, some of them was one or two that were not, and they were they're fiendish, they would attack you a bit. There's but there's always two out of like the whole grouping that were.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Was it the same two every time?

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Always.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

And so you're like, somebody else has got to get those two.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

I don't want to I got them, but they they just were they were just really mean.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yeah. They were they were not, they I don't know what they went through.

Shannon Harmon 3:18

Just like people, they're he they're stubborn, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:21

I don't know what the history was, but they did not go quietly into the chamber. Um, and then I was just running it like amphetamine and like drug-related behavior pharmacological research for the graduate students, not really knowing what I was doing.

Shannon Harmon 3:33

Right, yeah. Yeah, not understanding if that was like looking at behavior or something.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

I had to do this at this time and do this and then put them there. And then the the program ran and they looked at their data and I just helped them.

Shannon Harmon 3:46

Awesome. So, what made you come to Mississippi State and work in uh the program here?

SPEAKER_03 3:52

Yeah, so I had been teaching in behavior analysis at University Cincinnati beforehand. I'd got my doctorate at Western Michigan University. And my advisor was like, hey, just you need to get some more like teaching experience. So I uh worked as an educator primarily, so a non-tenure track educator with a lot of teaching loans just to get as much of the because I thought, like, hey, we're gonna have a lot of online teaching. I think that's probably gonna be the way of the future. Let me get a head start on that because that wasn't my my my practice of being like in person as a graduate student, as like, you know, in the field, everything was in person, but what our field was growing, and it's I thought it's a great way to grow the field, as long as we had like active student responding, ways to assess learning. Um, and then after that, we had some changes to accreditation standards where the supervision for um like the students had to have like localized sites, they had to be involved a bit more research, and so it seemed like the research that was needed for folks, even at the under you know, the graduate student level and then doctoral student level, they are gonna need sites like practicum sites. And when I came to Mississippi State, they have a lot. They've got a pediatric feeding clinic, they've got the Duff Center, which is a brand new building. Yes, we're both like looking at like it. It's a beautiful one of the most beautiful campus buildings. Um, so it's a big draw when you're like, oh, where are you gonna actually teach the people in a location? Some of the things that they're learning about in the classroom. They've got clinics, they've got um, they've got the access program to work with adults and uh university students that need um additional supports, and then they've also got the um clinic at the Tuft Center for kids that need educational assistance. Absolutely. So lots of places. They've got the Golden Triangle autism services, they've got uh lots of satellite programs, and a lot of the behavior analytic community seems to stay in Mississippi State. So they also become kind of the support structure for the students getting real world experience in conjunction with the teachers teaching something.

Shannon Harmon 5:49

Yeah, absolutely. That's so great that you're making that connection of what happens in the classroom, linking to the real world, and how we do that really well here at Mississippi State. I think that's a a badge of pride for us, and that we have buildings like the Deaf Center. So, what has surprised you the most about your first year here at Mississippi State?

SPEAKER_03 6:06

What surprised me most uh is that there's like the students really just have are very interested in learning. Right. They they they they they really want to get the material. They're uh excited and enthusiastic. Um and I think like from what I was reading online, like it the student body here, yeah, they really have that scientist practitioner mindset, which is they want the information, they want to make a difference, they are looking to like make meaningful contributions and impacts as lifelong learningers. And that to me is like if that's someone's mission, like uh if I can be part of that, that will be a goal. And like what I'm finding though, like I'm you know, I need like I've gotta do continuous changes to to meet that. So, like having taught asynchronous for such a long time, gotta figure out any old bad practice habits and adjust for them. So I think the big change, I was like, I thought I was just gonna slide back into in-person teaching, it was gonna be seamless, I was gonna be brilliant at it. Uh, and you know, I've got so I've got some I've got some tweaks. I've got to I've got to adjust for.

Shannon Harmon 7:09

But don't we all? I mean, I've been doing this for 25 years, and there are days when I'm like, oh, I need to do this better, or that reflection. And so I I that's really why I ask you to be here, Neil.

SPEAKER_03 7:18

I think you're just saying that. Like that. No, I'm not just saying that. I'm being honest. You're at the point where like if anyone meets you, I think they realize you're a great like instructor. I I I think I can I can honestly say, like, I I I I feel I've got there's the the rough edges are enough that it's like oh I can only do better because I've got so much improvement to make.

Shannon Harmon 7:38

Okay, but that mindset, Neil, just that we can do better, we can all strive to do better, me included, um, is already winning. It's when we do the things, but we don't say I can do better or I'm not willing to do better. That is the issue. And that's honestly really why I wanted you on the podcast today. Um, you know, I love that you're teaching and having your learners um learn by doing. Um, I think that's something faculty here on this campus but beyond will benefit from hearing from. Um, I also think that uh to build innovative learning experiences while navigating the realities of being in your first year here in a tenure-type position can be a struggle. And so I think you sharing your experiences is just so unique. Um, you know, when I met you um in our new faculty teaching academy, I saw so much potential potential in you as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

That's what the students said too. They said I had potential in my feedback.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

They were like, I see he, oh, he really wants us to learn, but like I didn't, I didn't like know what I learned. And so I was like, he's got potential. He's not quite there.

Shannon Harmon 8:45

It's like uh that immediate relation building, right? And then they see you as someone who's learning and learning how to teach as you're trying to teach them and navigate it. So I think that's huge.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

The one thing I thought was very surprised about, I should probably mention too, is like how many supports there were. So like the the Canvas teaching pictorial, like me meaning you seeing that there were supports there, that there's continuous like announcements by site. We've got this training. I just volunteered for another one. We've got insights for teaching, you've got they're all here and they're like resources. And I don't know how many people take I I'm sure because I actually do see the site like uh observation is booked up. Yeah so there are some things that get booked up, but I'm not sure everything does. Right. So there's a lot of like cool resources um for both teaching and research here that like are phenomenal.

Shannon Harmon 9:34

Yeah. And and that I also think is kind of unique to a research one university, right? Is that we value teaching as well. Um, and so we, you know, in my mind, I come from a place where my teaching uh really helped my research and my research informed my teaching. Um and so making that a seamless process, uh, just that collaboration of both, that scholarship of teaching and learning, um, really has always had an impact on me. And I see you doing um some similar work and thinking in that similar way. That's very kind of you to say. I'm serious, Neil. Um, you are doing a really good job. Give yourself some grace, man. I told you this.

SPEAKER_03 10:09

I I keep that grace low so that I can keep like that drive to like, hey, I I've got, you know, that work.

Shannon Harmon 10:15

Yeah. Hey, listen, I'm telling you, if we ever get to a place where we say we can't continue to work on our craft, whether it's our content knowledge or our teaching, it's time for us to go home. So that's what's so amazing about site is that we are here for people in all parts of their career, new faculty like you, people who are in the middle part of their career, people at the, you know, on the end of their career. We want to meet the needs of all faculty and have various programming for them. So thank you for for mentioning that and that we do have programming. Um, one of the things that you and I have talked about, and you've added me to your uh Canvas course, which I love that I've looked at it, it looks really good.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

Well, thanks. I I I made like a new splash page at the beginning. You sure saw so someone in our program who does a lot of teaching for like undergraduates. Um, I got a sneak peek at one of her uh like quick canvas modules. And I was like, I don't have any of these like quick module one, like all module like links, and it's easy to just make them. Right. And so it's like that's a really nice splash page to add to the beginning. And so I was like, I'm gonna incorporate that.

Shannon Harmon 11:17

Yeah, it looks really good. Again, that that level of instructional design that we don't often think is important that helps our learners again, the way we design and set up modules um in Canvas can have a big impact on what students walk away with. So it supports that content. So I know you're also using the portable operant research and teaching lab, if you will, define for us portal.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

So portal is a it's basically a workbook, but that you have a bunch of like different toys in a um in a bag, and you have different assignments from Portal, which stands for the Portable Operant Research and Training Lab, and it's to teach you the basics of behavior analytic principles. So reinforcement, conditioned reinforcement, how to do shaping, which is leading someone through successive approximations to engage in a desired behavior. So you want to kind of stagger those things, start with very small elemental behaviors and then chain them together to larger sets of behaviors. And so Jesus uh Rizala's uh Ruas and Miri Hunter, the creators, and the idea behind it was to give students that experiential learning that they would have in like an applied, like an applied setting that they might get when working with a client, uh, so they can practice. And so it's a tabletop learning paradigm. So you get to be a teacher, you get to be a learner, and then you swap roles. And so the idea is you actually can't speak to your learner or teacher. You've got a clicker and you've got blocks, and these blocks simulate um conditioned reinforcers, and so does the um, well, they they're supposed to the blocks are the primary reinforcer, right? That's like the edible food for like pigeons or uh, you know, some actual some actual tangible thing. The click is the conditioned reinforcer. So they learn about peering, you know, how to pair the click with the block, and then they learn to start shaping repertoires. So a click is you kind of the right direction. If you if you think about an analogy of like the warmer, colder situation in the classroom when you're trying to direct someone where they're going, like you're getting warmer, you're getting warmer. Yeah, yeah. It's it's to teach something that might be a complex repertoire and realize how how much of a struggle it can be from both the learner and the teacher's perspective. So when you're teaching someone and things aren't going well, blaming is clearly not going to help the scenario. We've got to have to reset. Okay, what do I need to do? And we all get to so if there are moments where something can't be trained, like I had the just recently, I had the class and I asked the students to give me something you think I wouldn't be able to train that would embarrass me in front of everyone. Uh, that was the direction. And so they came up with some really funny ones, like like um make two animals kiss each other, right? So how like you've got these two toys that placed in front of you, but you don't they the part you can't tell the person that's what you're supposed to do. So, like, how do you how do you train that? Or how like go in a circle eight round a cork cork block, right? Um, you know, and it's like how do you train that? And so there's a lot of innovative ways, or like you know, stack some cards and throw a die at the cards, right? Like, um, that's that could be that could be pretty, pretty challenging. Um, so you figure out how do I stagger that? And it's just like the same process for teaching any other concept. You do it modular, you they break it into a piece. You might start at the end repertoire, you might start at the beginning repertoire. You might like um, for example, if you have um a die, the the in the initial thing is to throw it. Um, so if you want someone to throw the car, you might need to start with the die and transfer reinforce throwing by clicking when they throw the die, then give the car, and they might throw the car versus roll the car. So it's like that how do you transfer like motion paths of learning that would normally happen with um these stimuli? When you see these stimuli, you you kind of crash the cars together. How do I how do I tra transfer that to two animals that put their noses together and get the kiss, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

So um, and how and then then at the end you have a debriefing where you're like, hey, well, do you think they were actually trying to teach you? You got it. You know, you but what do you think it was? And sometimes they'll report, well, I thought it was to make them collide.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

And it's not quite the actually verbal understanding of the task. So it's actually a really neat like protocol, and it's um it's a way to get back what like kind of got I got with the animals like learning without having the multi-million dollar like grant to fund like that level of research, because uh a lot of there's a lot of defunding that's going on for like especially for um basic research, um, which has been one of the main like outsets for informing us about human like interactions. Uh just needs a translational spin uh for like how how does this apply. And a lot of times the knowledge for knowledge's sake never was meant to apply towards humans, it just ended up being relevant. Once you discover a learning process, guess what? Somehow it's gonna be revolutionary in understanding humans.

Shannon Harmon 16:14

Yeah. Well, I mean, you're describing that true like behavioral learning theory, right? Like how interactions with environment and feedback and consequences even impact what we do, what behaviors we have.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Yeah. No such thing as a bad learner.

Shannon Harmon 16:27

Right. Yeah. Tell me more, say more about that.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

So um, you know, if if something isn't happening, you know, it's because the you know, the contingencies, the setup, the arrangement, if there's interfering variables, um, there's there's something ongoing that's interfering. There's maybe variability, it could be, you know, the students come in and maybe there's not enough instructions from the outset. Um, so you've got to re-examine your material, your instructions. Um, and then the cool thing is I was hoping that I would get embarrassed and then I would have to call upon the students. Like, what do I need to do differently? Right. Uh, but I actually I was like, uh where I don't, I was like, I actually aced it. So like I did really good. And I was like, which I was like really happy because like I've got the same set of students. So I wanted to because like last class was theory and philosophy, which is a boring class in my echo. But like it, like I try to make it fun, but like talking about like things that may or may not like it, like it's any philosophy course.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Like if you're in philosophy, theoretical, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

You're like it can take you a while to get into philosophy. I'm I'm getting more into it, but at the same time, it's like, but when do we do things?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

You know, and this one they get to do things. Uh-huh. And I think there's a big kind of perk up effect for the class.

Shannon Harmon 17:39

Right. And so the uh you call it a perk up. I call it a motivation to engage or to opt in. So do you see students and in what ways do you see them opting in in this portal environment?

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah, like they they're they're like they're smiling, they're happy. Uh-huh. Um, you know, like I said.

Shannon Harmon 17:55

Do they come to class? Like, do you have regular attendance? Is that yeah?

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah, they came, they came to class and they they're like, they're ready to act actively participate. Yes. They're um they're they're excited as soon as I said, hey, we're gonna minimize the instruction comparatively to last time, and we're gonna devote more than 50% towards this tabletop experience and your data recording for this because this is gonna simulate um your work with a client. You're gonna have to record data, you're gonna have to make reports, and they've got an end of a semester inquiry project back to why I like behavior analysis the most out of like some of the other schools. I've of and um I I I love the work with like neuroscience, I love the work with general psych, gasolts of psychology. I think they all have brilliant, you know, pieces. I was just teaching them about the ebbing house effect, which is like the illusion of the the circles with the larger circles around it. Hit the mic. And uh the the the different folks from different cultures will answer that that they look the same. But most uh industrial societies will say the the one that that one's larger with the smaller circles around it because they they're responding to the gestalt, the whole holistic look of the stimuli versus just a single part of it. And so, like I said, would you be surprised if you if I if you asked a kid and they said it's the same, and you ask an adult and they they they see one as bigger than the other, and that just a perception of the same stimuli have different responses based on learning history. Um and like I'm trying to convince them that behavior analysis doesn't just look at overt behavior, we're interested in like thoughts, feelings, values, emotions. And like I think that's one of the misnomers and what why some people turn away from it is they think that, oh, it's just looking at only the behaviors we can see.

Shannon Harmon 19:36

And one of the things that I think, you know, um you're doing in your class is having these real world applications. You have been transp um transparent with your students about how they can apply them in their future careers. And then that is training their behavior, right, to come to class, to opt in, to be motivated to learn because they know they will ultimately be responsible for their learning. Um, and so I think you bringing that full circle for your students is something that's really key that we can do as faculty when we're teaching.

SPEAKER_03 20:06

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing to learn about learning for your client and yourself. Exactly. And the teacher. It's like triple learning going on.

Shannon Harmon 20:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

It's like I'm learning from the students, they're learning from the the class, they're learning from their clients, the clients are learning from them. All this learning. Oh God. I mean, our head's gonna fall off.

Shannon Harmon 20:24

No, it's awesome though, that power of of what you're talking about. And again, um, I I have said this, you know, we kind of um train students what we expect them to do in class, you know. Do we expect them to to as soon as they come in to a class here on this campus, scan their ID card to count their attendance, right? Like what are these behaviors that if they do, they scan that. That means they're counted present. You know, that's got a positive um result. Um we we might train them when to submit work, when to, you know, post and discussion boards, um, how to respond in class. Like these are all the kinds of behaviors that we uh as faculty can train, quote unquote, them to do, right? By just laying out what our expectations are for them.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

Uh increasing them is the the main thing, main change I've made from the last semester to now is like the people reported mid-semester that they really enjoyed the group discussion feedback, but I did it like kind of incorporated mid-semester. This time I've got that from last semester, and I've um tried to do every lecture, we've got a discussion that's in class. Then I have a discussion in Canvas that they write about, and then we do it in class as well. So then there's double time to discuss a topic. Nice, but then they've also formulated something on the prior to right. Yeah. And that helps them with the discussion again. Because like I think there's a free flow discussion, but then there's a honed in uh commitment response when you write it down.

Shannon Harmon 21:49

Nice, yeah. And and and many times um students in these classes need time to process, right? So get our words out um on some paper and then come to class with some idea about that, but then be able To hear other perspectives and ideas and we can we can take those in and process them. Um so that's very powerful. I'm glad you're doing that. You know, that's unique to you, Neil. I don't think it's no, it is. It is. You're new, you're new faculty, you're juggling all the things, teaching research service, um j you know, juggling your own priorities, and you're recognizing, hey, I need to make some changes in my teaching. Um, so you said the discussions are one thing you're doing. What else are you doing that's new in the middle of this whole academic year with everything you have going on? I started using Slido. For our listeners who may not know or have never experienced what is Slido?

SPEAKER_03 22:40

So it's an online polling software that you you can arrange surveys, you can arrange um ways to initiate group discussion, question and answer, and you can reset them, the polls and answer new questions. You can do different formats like WordCloud. It's basically like Qualtrics for surveys, but for a more dynamic, quick, fast root, fast like classroom presentation. And it can be integrated in WebEx. And we all have access to it through Mississippi State, which is wonderful.

Shannon Harmon 23:07

Yeah. And so um I I found it very interesting that you picked that to insert this year. But I I didn't want to.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Like so, like I was like, because there's like this, if it's new, I'm like, I don't want to put it in because then it's like something else I have to learn or like mess around with. But then I've like it's so easy to use. And like the although I did the students were like, hey, it's locked, or it's not what I can't enter it. And I thought I didn't understand that I had to click the unlock button. And so I was like, I'll just send them the link again to Slido, and that's like nothing's changed. So like some things they they think are intuitive. I think they're intuitive. Like their test is for 80% of people, and like if you if you don't understand like images and what they mean, you know, I'll put diesel in a gasoline car twice. It's sometimes it takes me twice to like really make a mistake. So some people have a little harder time learning. Like, maybe I'm one of those people.

Shannon Harmon 23:58

You know what? Okay, so that's my whole point, right? You're um a new faculty member, you've got a group of students. Yes, you have the content knowledge of the discipline, but with the teaching, it's really good for them to see that you're part of this community of learners. You're learning along the way.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

And uh like I start I I my dad never took me to work on a car. The diesel, the actual like gun to like shoot it in the car, doesn't fit. Like, so you have to like you literally have to work really hard. Really hard.

Shannon Harmon 24:27

I wonder, I was gonna ask you, like how were how did you make that happen?

SPEAKER_03 24:30

It's like you like portraying someone really trying to put a square peg in the case. In a ram hole, yeah, exactly. Like, so you know, I might have been one of those kids that it's just like I really enjoyed that clink sound.

Shannon Harmon 24:39

But now, but the great, the beauty of that, Neil, is you're teaching kiddos like that. Like you're teaching students who also have uniquenesses. And we all have those as learners. So when we come to class, our professor also has uniqueness, and we're all gonna learn something together. That doesn't mean that we cannot learn or we shouldn't be here, or all of those things, right? I think sometimes that can feel like a negative or heavy. Um, but the way you're dealing with it and really looking at and reflection your teaching and how you can um reach your students in a different way is is it's beautiful. That's that's a very kind to it's an expensive mistake. Well, the diesel in the car, yes. But the teaching and just adding Slido, that is, I mean, you know, that's something that you just you just learn and you play around with it and you haven't stopped. I mean, as I said, you've added me to your course, and so I saw that you resent them the link. You know, you did that as an announcement. And and that's really cool in saying, hey, here's the new link. I think I've got it fixed now.

SPEAKER_03 25:36

Yeah. That was it was really just I needed to click a button. So I was like, I I because you know, when you're in class, so I usually what I do is I have my computer up and then I have my uh podium like computer uh so that I've got the Slido quick so I can mess around with it. And so I try to do that beforehand. And then I think the the funny thing is like things fall apart, like they always fall apart. That's that's part of it. Um, and then like how do you plan for things to fall apart and be prepared for when you're unprepared? And I like my economics teacher used to say if you fail to prepare, prepare to fail. But even if you prepare, right, there's failure. There are things that happen, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

And it's how you respond to them, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

So like it's like um really I th and there is, I think, that something to say about having grace in in failure. Yeah, absolutely. You know, like the response to failure, I think, is like the key component to perseverance, right? In learning.

Shannon Harmon 26:30

You can't learn if you don't. Uh I mean, the most brilliant. You're not doing anything. You're doing nothing new. Yes. I mean, like, I'm serious. If you're not trying to learn something new, you're gonna fail in that learning process. You have to fail forward. Um, what do you do with it? Yeah. Yeah. That's an elementary educators phrase. We say that a lot. Uh fail forward because it's a positive way of thinking about it. You know, what do we do as a result of it? Yeah. Um, I want to I wanna go back to what you said about Slido. So you've been fooling around with it. What are you seeing as a result from your students?

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Yeah. So one of my big problems of like trying to make a survey or anything like that is often I try to put too much in. Yeah. And so um I like I've well, the cool thing is I've got a lot of faculty who have shared like what they've done, um, how it's worked for them. So someone in our program use a stop, start, continue kind of questionnaire. So I've used that as a kind of a larger question at three points in the semester. So, what should we start doing? What should we stop doing? What should we continue doing? Um, and then for my ongoing lectures as an assessment of like comprehension content and pace. So I have a pace question, it's like too, you know, on pace, you know, right on, like too slow, too fast. I never get the too slow, and I'm getting more on pace now, and that's too fast, which is good. And then for the comprehension, it's like got some, but you know, didn't get any, um, got it all. And just making it three, like very three, like three-point things, they're more likely to do it than having like different like kind of creations.

Shannon Harmon 28:01

I think that's so awesome that you're asking them, you know, what did you comprehend from this? A lot of times I like to ask, uh, I at the beginning of class, I'll say, here's what our goal for this lesson is. And at the end of it, I'll say, here was our goal. In what ways in what we did today, aligned or not with that. Now, what are you walking away with? Because oftentimes we have to make those connections for students of linking it to our the goal of our lesson, right? To what we're doing. Um, so training pigeons for a behavior is linked to this goal of learning the response, right? Or whatever it is. And so I think sometimes coming back to that at the end of a class and saying, this was the point of this lesson. Are you walking away with that? What are you walking away with if not that? Yeah. Because that informs our instruction.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

And then what's cool is they have a question board that's just a part of it. And people were using it instead of the discussion board or emailing me, which I didn't anticipate, which was nice because then everyone gets to see their question and an answer. Yeah. Which whereas if they email me, then I have to send an announcement out. Yeah. Which is like, oh, that's an extra step. So that was another reason why I was like, oh, I should have probably had this earlier.

Shannon Harmon 29:04

Well, and also too, then they're learning from each other and and that social uh contingency. And I think that's huge. Um, you're creating that environment.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Um, there's one question I have, which is like, what would you like to revisit? Is a word cloud. Uh-huh. Yeah. So that that part there is just like great.

Shannon Harmon 29:21

Is it surprising you what they're saying and what they're saying in the word cloud?

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Um, not as much, Liz, because I feel like uh from the outset, I'm trying to well, I went I went a lot more tangents previously. And like way I learned was like you on tangents? No way. Yeah, I was I was tangential, but it like I would then plug on for that professor to keep going tangenally because that would definitely mean that he can't test us on the continent. Right, of course.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

If he goes over here and we were supposed to learn something else, then we're not accountable for that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

We when I was when that happened, we would just I would reinforce the.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Of course, you'd be like, keep going, professor.

SPEAKER_03 29:58

Yeah, like that test is gonna be easy.

Shannon Harmon 30:00

But your students were saying, Hey, we don't want that, we want you to get back on track and put us in that.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Which you know, you know, and which makes sense too. But like so, for me, it was the class was previously just we want, I want what you, you know, outside the textbook have experience in clinic or like with your research. And um now we're very more centered on like what's the exam, because they have to pass an exam. And that is the key component one as well as the experience to practicing. And so um, I totally understand like you've you've got to get these core foundational aspects down. And then, you know, I've got a one lecture this semester where I've got a guest lecture. Um, so I'm really excited to have potentially that broader discussion allocated and then have a very like we're gonna start, we're gonna make sure we get the core mandatory like requirements that you're gonna need for the accreditation and process and and for finalizing the exam that's outside of this class that they have to like take.

Shannon Harmon 30:59

Um, so they feel prepared. Yeah. And I love that you're bringing someone in that's a quote unquote expert to do that with them because hearing it from another voice, they hear your voice all semester, but then hearing it from someone else, that really resonates with students as well. So see, you're doing these amazing things and you don't even realize it. Yeah, well, that's very kind of you. I'm not being kind of being honest. I think that's what I'm saying. You also need to recognize the work that you're doing because making those decisions about your teaching, um you have to be purposeful in them. And it's very easy to not do that and just say, okay, I'll I'll post on discussion board something about the licensure exam or I'll do this for accreditation, whatever. But you're being very purposeful. And that's huge, Neil. That's you constantly reflecting in a time where, as you said it yourself, where maybe you were really struggling, you could just put your head in the sand and and move on.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

But you're not does feel really good though, you know, that warm sand.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

To put your head in the sand.

SPEAKER_03 31:54

And then it's like those those comments that like were upsetting, you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

So what's that phrase? We can keep doing what we've always done, but we'll always get what we've Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Yeah. It's uh something, isn't that one of the Einstein quotes?

Shannon Harmon 32:07

It I'm sure it is. It's like you can keep doing what you've always done. That means you're gonna always get that same thing, right? You know, so we have to make change. We have to do something different. And and you're doing that. And you just sharing your story today um as a new faculty will help future faculty. It's not a um, you know, it's a it's it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, right? It takes some time. The things you're doing this year, you can Slido. Let's say just Slido. If you just feel comfortable with Slido this year, imagine if you add and you do Slido plus one other new thing next fall. And then you build up, right, all of these things that become some really strong um methodology in not even another academic year.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, because I taught asynchronously, the tangents weren't really much of a problem because people could go back. Right. You know, and so like uh in some ways it shaped up some challenging behavior for the in-person, you know, because it was like, oh, I really enjoyed this. I had to go back three times over it. But that opportunity isn't there for the in-person. So, you know, you really have to adjust to make sure that like not everyone is gonna say they don't understand it because it is embarrassing sometimes. Like, hey, I didn't get it. Right. And um, yeah, you know, so the uh the chance to say revisit a topic is it isn't even saying I didn't understand it. No. Like we just let's go over it a bit more.

Shannon Harmon 33:26

Yeah, maybe we just need to verify what I heard, what I learned is what the goal was. So um I never like to leave an episode without providing advice for our listeners. So if you had a colleague come up to you and say, Hey, I'm also a new faculty member, what is one piece of advice you would give me going back into my classroom uh tomorrow? Uh, what advice would you give?

SPEAKER_03 33:49

I usually like to give like something quippy and fun that makes all of it start off with like being lighthearted. So I basically say any advice I give is usually take it with a grain of salt. It's not worthwhile. Um and then I would say that, you know, if you're engaging in like, you know, testing just like we do in research, that same approach, um, you should be able to figure anything out. And then obviously, like there isn't anyone's idea in teaching. Like you're already building off of everyone, you're standing in the shoulders of giants, just like the research literature works. So it's like if I I take someone from some idea from someone in the apartment, it's not like taking. Well, I'm working with them. And if I can find something, I'm gonna give it back to them in spades, like something that that's worked for me by borrowing on something that they had and modifying. I don't the other thing that I think the climate here is really nice, is everyone's sharing everything. It's slightly different, like in some other colleges where your lecture is your lecture, you don't actually share it with folks. It's very different. And I think that is a neat part of it because it's like what works for someone can work for everyone, and we're all succeeding together.

Shannon Harmon 34:56

Um I love that. The best teachers, we steal from each other. That's what we do. When I was teaching in K-12, that's what we did. We went next door to my friend and I said, Hey, how are you teaching this third grade lesson? That's what we do. Teaching is collaborative, it is lifelong learning. Um, it does, as you said, we're standing on the backs of giants who've come before us. It all comes back to educational theorists. You know, I'm a Vygotskyan. That's where, and this social constructivism is where my teaching lies. Um, and so uh, yes, I'm constantly evolving though, what that looks like for me when I teach. Um, and for us to share the things that we're doing and trying out with others is very powerful in changing the way we teach and learn on this campus and beyond.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Yeah. And then everyone I I told and like kind of shared, like, you know, kind of any struggles I've had, it's been like, are you doing everything right? They've been saying that, and like even if it feels it feels like the exact opposite, everything's gone wrong. And they're like, you're doing everything right, and you're gonna make these changes and you're gonna do these things, and that's all you can do. So if you make changes and it works, do it in a staggered fashion. Yeah. Because like don't don't initiate a whole boardload of changes so quickly that you can't track with what worked. That's it. And that's the hard thing is like say you've got like some some feedback where like something wasn't working. In some cases, it might have been working for a set of students. You know, just just kind of grade the feedback based on kind of what has worked in the past and the majority that's worked for the majority. And sometimes like folks will say you're reading from the slides too much, right? And then next time they'll say you're you're on tangents, right? So there's there's sometimes there isn't in I've had the exact same course taught at University of Cincinnati, and nothing's changed. It's different cohort, and the the like at scale points were completely different. And it's like I don't quite ex I don't know how to explain it, but um and it was asynchronous too, so it's like the the lecture's not changed, it's it's verbatim, it hadn't changed that much. But your your learners changed that's that's the other thing to make to figure out you've got you you have different learners sometimes things just don't work.

Shannon Harmon 37:05

So adapting to your learners in your different context is key. Yeah. Well, thank you. Um what you've shared today is just a powerful reminder for me, and I think for everyone listening that great teaching isn't about having it all figured out, um, especially in your first year. So continue to give yourself that grace. Um, it's it's really about being open to learning alongside your students, taking risk, giving yourself permission to fail and fail forward, especially when things do not go as planned. This conversation also highlights something we don't always say out loud. First year faculty are navigating multiple learning curves at once. Learning about a new institution, new students, again, this new context of learners, new expectations, and often new teaching approaches. So choosing to innovate in this new context for you, Neil, that takes courage. So congratulations. Oh thanks.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

And like, you know, this is this is like the one of the coolest universities. Like uh like the campus is so big. Like it is so big. I know. And like it's like a lot of places, like so a lot of places are squeezed by the cities. Yes. Like this, there's this place that could grow as much as it wants. You know, like there's no end to like the growth.

Shannon Harmon 38:23

And it's beautiful. And that's the thing is that we are a thriving campus that we see growth in research and teaching and service. As you reflect on today's conversation, I invite you to consider this question. What's one small intentional risk you might take in your teaching that could lead to a deeper learning? Thank you for joining us for this episode of Insightful Teaching. If today's conversation resonated with you, consider sharing it with a colleague. Until next time, keep teaching with insightful purpose, keep innovating with an insightful heart, and keep being the reason someone believes they belong here.